ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
There was a chilling moment last week at Newark Airport when air traffic controllers lost all radar and radio communications with planes. The Federal Aviation Administration says the blackout lasted 30 seconds. Some reports suggest it was up to a minute and a half. Somehow, there were no collisions, but the long-term problems that led to this crisis have not gone away. David Grizzle was the chief operating officer and head of Air Traffic Control for the FAA during the Obama administration, and he told me the challenges range from overworked and understaffed air traffic controllers to old and outdated technology.
DAVID GRIZZLE: Most of the telecommunication system is the very best technology of the 1980s. And like so much of the equipment that exists in the FAA, it is quite old. It's decades out of date. And when it was replaced, it was also replacing technology that was itself decades out of date. And so that's part of the problem is that the FAA is in a loop where it only does big technology projects every 30 or 40 years, which means that when they are actually delivered, they're already out of date.
SHAPIRO: I'm just trying to imagine using a phone from the 1980s or a car from the 1980s. The gap between that technology and the present day is so wide. It is incredible that thousands of Americans fly every single day, putting their life and safety in the hands of technology that is that old and out of date.
GRIZZLE: It is, in fact, that old and out of date, Ari.
SHAPIRO: Well, there's that whole set of technology problems, but then there's also the challenge of personnel. Are there enough trained air traffic controllers to do the job of this size that we have today?
GRIZZLE: No, Ari, there are not. We are short several thousand controllers. And even at the pace of hiring that we are undertaking right now, we will not be able to keep up with retirements and attritions unless we make further changes both to the hiring process and to the training technology, which prepares new hires to become controllers.
SHAPIRO: Let's talk about how we got to this point because the current transportation secretary, Sean Duffy, blamed the Biden administration. It's also been pointed out that President Trump cut FAA staff earlier this year. Who do you hold accountable?
GRIZZLE: Let me say, first of all, that I've been involved in the airline industry for over 40 years, and I have never seen a secretary more intensely engaged in aviation than what Secretary Duffy is, and so I have a lot of optimism based on that. But going back to your question, Ari, this problem is decades in the making. The FAA, the air traffic control system, has been underfunded for decades, and the core underfunding status is exacerbated by these government shutdowns and threatened government shutdowns, which seem to be occurring almost on an annual basis now. And each of those interrupts the program development that had been funded. And so we're not getting our full money's worth, even for what is appropriated because of all of the interruptions in the funding.
SHAPIRO: If you had a blank check, would you be able to fix this? Is it just a matter of money?
GRIZZLE: It is not entirely a matter of money. We also need to change the procurement process because, Ari, any private sector company does not replace its technology in large bundles every 40 years. It is constantly engaged in a process of iterative and repetitive technology renewal. And that's the way you keep a high-tech business in a state-of-the-art situation. And unfortunately, that type of acquisition program is not supported by the federal procurement system.
SHAPIRO: I guess the bottom line question is, should Americans feel safe flying right now?
GRIZZLE: Ari, I would not hesitate to fly anytime, anywhere - with my grandchildren. The system is safe. And at the same time, safety is not a line in the sand, which you're either on one side of or the other. Safety is a process, and the system is very safe. And at the same time, the margin of safety is narrower than what it was 10 years ago.
SHAPIRO: That's David Grizzle, former COO and head of Air Traffic Control for the Federal Aviation Administration. Thank you for talking with us.
GRIZZLE: Thank you, Ari. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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