AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
After six weeks of testimony, prosecutors and defense attorneys have delivered their closing arguments in the federal sex trafficking and racketeering trial of Sean Combs. The jury in New York is deliberating. The jury in one of the courts of public opinion? That verdict is in. Here to talk about how rap's manosphere has made it loud and clear that we're in a post #MeToo era are NPR Music's Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, who's been covering the trial daily from court, and Rodney Carmichael, who's been watching how the trial reverberates online. Hi to you both.
RODNEY CARMICHAEL, BYLINE: Hey, Ayesha.
ISABELLA GOMEZ SARMIENTO, BYLINE: Hey, there.
RASCOE: Rodney, I want to start with you. I know you've been looking at how the trial is talked about on podcasts and, you know, chat shows on YouTube. What's the tone of the conversation that you're hearing?
CARMICHAEL: Well, you know, Ayesha, like hip-hop itself, these conversations are extremely segmented. And what you hear in a lot of these spaces is discourse that's really driven by a lot of toxic and misogynist thinking - so much so that, you know, I kind of started calling it the rap manosphere. And, of course, the term manosphere - up until now, it's been understood as this broader cultural mainstreaming of terminally online voices pushing these really regressive forms of masculinity and misogyny. And when you pair that with commercial hip-hop, which is already a male-dominant space, it gets compounded. And so a trial that should be framed by the lessons around consent that came out of the #MeToo movement are instead often being reframed, with Sean Combs cast as the victim in a wider conspiracy against Black men.
RASCOE: Isabella, you've been in the courthouse since the start of the trial. How are people in and around this space responding to what's happening in the courtroom?
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah. I mean, to back up a little bit, you know, Combs is facing charges that include sex trafficking and racketeering conspiracy. So basically, the government is accusing him of running a criminal enterprise that helped conceal violence and sexual abuse. So we've heard a lot of testimony that's really graphic in nature, especially from the women accusing Combs of assaulting them.
There are a lot of YouTubers and content creators coming to court every single day, and a lot of those people are there to support Combs. That's not really unusual in a celebrity trial. But there's so many people there that there's not enough room in the actual courtroom. There's a separate room that's playing video and audio of everything that's happening. And in there, it tends to feel like a watch party. There are days when teenage boys and tourists come in and giggle while witnesses read explicit texts. There are a lot of reactions to the very sexual nature of the testimony.
And one of the most telling moments was when defense attorney Brian Steel was cross-examining a woman who testified using the pseudonym Mia. She used to work for Sean Combs, and she accused him of raping her. Steel took a really confrontational approach. And when he asked Mia if she was lying about the assault and if this was, quote, a "#MeToo money grab," people in the courthouse were cheering and laughing. They were kind of treating it like a gotcha moment, and it spoke volumes to how a lot of people feel about sexual assault and alleged victims right now.
RASCOE: That's what's happening in the trial. But, Rodney, the podcasters and streamers you've been watching - they're people with massive platforms, and they don't speak like, you know, a nice little tourist. So, you know, coming up, we're going to have some swears and slurs that we're going to have to beep from some of their content.
CARMICHAEL: Yeah, these are definitely not tourists, Ayesha, especially within hip-hop culture. A lot of the loudest voices commenting on this trial are actually former successful rappers themselves turned podcasters, like Joe Budden or Cam'ron. And this rap manosphere - it's been almost single-handedly shaping the public discourse around this trial. I mean, we've seen and heard it on chat podcasts, where a lot of the empathy expressed is for Sean Combs. And it totally outweighs any expression of sympathy or even believability in regard to his alleged victims, like this clip from a recent episode of "The Joe Budden Podcast."
(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "THE JOE BUDDEN PODCAST")
JOE BUDDEN: Yeah, this is real. I can only imagine what he felt like. You being on trial for the - for your life is some different [expletive].
CARMICHAEL: And we've heard it in the many ways that the graphic details of this trial have been used as fodder for entertainment and sensationalism over anything of substance. Like this clip of Cam'ron, who's been commenting on the case on his show "Talk With Flee."
(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "TALK WITH FLEE")
CAM'RON: It was really like that with the baby oil. I was reading in the subpoena, and some of the testimony, too, that [expletive] he had the blow-up pool filled with baby oil - like, the little joint (laughter).
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Little baby pool.
CAM'RON: Baby pool, baby oil.
(LAUGHTER)
CAM'RON: N***** said, whee.
(LAUGHTER)
CARMICHAEL: And even when there is a voice of conscience providing some much-needed balance around these conversations, they're usually the ones that get drowned out and shouted down by the other people in the room. Just listen to how that happens to the academic Marc Lamont Hill, whether he's standing up for alleged victims of Sean Combs or women in related cases on Joe Budden's podcast.
(SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, "THE JOE BUDDEN PODCAST")
RAY DANIELS: That [expletive] always takes the women's side. Like, damn...
BUDDEN: Is that Marc - you talking about...
DANIELS: Like, can a man...
BUDDEN: You talking about Marc?
DANIELS: Like - Marc. That's why I - I love Marc, but I'm like, he always...
BUDDEN: Yeah...
DANIELS: ...Takes the woman's side.
BUDDEN: ...In some tight-a** hoodies (laughter).
DANIELS: And, listen, if he's a man and he says he's a trans-man, he's going to take your side even more 'cause it's a woman. You take that. And I'm just like, Marc, we are - Black men are being attacked, and you are one of the biggest voices out here. And what I'm saying is that if you don't give a voice a reason - one of the smart ones - I'm going to look at it as ignorant [expletive]. But you're a smart one. So if you don't give reason, [expletive], you just allowing them to railroad as many of our Black members...
(CROSSTALK)
RASCOE: Does this conversation you're talking about say something about how the media landscape is changing? When Combs was rising as a producer and star, there were lots of Black media outlets to cover him. But they were more traditional - you know, like, VIBE or ESSENCE - pretty much a part of the mainstream media.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's been a big decline in hip-hop media and an erosion of trust with mainstream media as a whole. So a lot of communities feel like traditional outlets don't speak to them, and they turn to the internet and social media and content creators.
I've talked to several YouTubers at the courthouse who live in other parts of the country, and they say they've been able to pay for flights to New York, hotels and even court transcripts with support from their subscribers. One creator told me he's gained 30,000 followers since the trial started and that he thinks, as other YouTubers and podcasters have seen that traction, that's part of what's bringing more and more people out every day. He also said that he feels like he serves his audience a story in a way that sets him apart from traditional media, and you can really feel that in the divide between journalists and content creators inside the courthouse.
There was a woman there last week coming up to journalists, asking if we were media and if we needed followers. And I watched a lot of reporters - myself included - politely decline to give her their personal information. So this kind of thing shows that social media has really blurred the lines of who's considered a journalist versus a creator, and who has credibility versus visibility.
CARMICHAEL: That's so true. And, you know, I also think that people are watching through the lens of their own bias, you know, and they want to watch coverage that validates whatever biases they're bringing to this trial. It's kind of fitting to me that "Money, Power, Respect" is the title of this classic song from Combs' Bad Boy Records, 'cause it's really also a mantra for men who believe anyone hurt in their pursuit of those things is just collateral damage. And that mentality colors, I think, a lot of the untrained and unconscious coverage we've seen of this case. And when that's your lens on the world, I think it makes it real hard to see any of the criminal wrongdoing that Sean Combs is alleged with committing.
RASCOE: That's NPR's Rodney Carmichael and Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. Thank you to you both.
CARMICHAEL: Thanks, Ayesha.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Thanks, Ayesha. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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